Multi-player linked Arduboys via a USB host (PC)

Yep, I already suggested an audio cable but was told that’d be too large. Maybe USB C connector?

I don’t think USB C connectors will be easily obtainable for general use for quite some time. I wouldn’t use any standard connector designed for a specific use. Someone might get the idea that that’s what it’s for, then plug in such a device, possibly causing damage.

I think just a right angle header strip such as this one would be fine. With this particular six pin verson, you could bring out Rx, Tx, Power, Ground, and the two I2C pins SDA (D2) and SCL (D3).

With I2C connectivity, a great number of possibilities opens up. If you used a strip with more that 6 pins, you could bring out more unused GPIO pins.

Could we talk directly over the i2C bus then?

Do you mean between two Arduboys? If so, the answer is: possibly. I2C is really only meant for chip to chip communications on a circuit board or within a single chassis.

If you kept the wires fairly short, say under 2 meters (6 feet), and ran at a slow I2C clock speed, it would probably work.

One issue might be mismatched voltages, like when one Arduboy has a full battery and the other has a fairly low battery, or when one Arduboy is powered by USB and the other’s on battery. In this case you may need level shifters or clamping circuitry to prevent damaged inputs due to overvoltage. If power and ground was provided on the connector, it might be possible to switch off the battery of one Arduboy and power both of them from the other, thus guaranteeing that the voltages would be matched. This would be true for Rx/Tx serial connections as well.

Another thing is that I2C uses open collector/drain drivers, so you need pull up resistors on each signal. This means that power and ground would have to be available on the connector.

I don’t think there would be any advantage to using I2C instead of just serial using Rx and Tx (which wouldn’t need pull ups), unless you wanted to connect more than 2 Arduboys together.

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I think with i2c you get the protocol timing and stuff for “free”, or is that all done in software not hardware? Most of the hardware stuff you mentioned there is over my head. :smile:

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Something that would get around the problem of mismatched signal voltages, and allow much longer cable lengths, for an Rx/Tx serial link, would be to put RS232 converters at each end of the cable. It would be simple but would require that power was available on the Arduboy connector.

Something like the one shown in the following picture is what I had in mind. They’re small and cheap and easy to obtain. You could wire one to each end of a cable and enclose it in heat shrink tubing.

Of course, all this depends on having a connector added to the production Arduboy that includes at least Rx, Tx, Power and Ground, or having people hack the Arduboy to bring out these signals.

It’s good that at least @bateske said in a comment on Kickstarter:

Extra Pinouts for Hacking: Yes any of the unused pins from the microcontroller will be brought out to test pads so you can open the device and hack it.

I think a Raspberry Pi would be a good idea and stick a battery on it and it can be a 4 player portable server.

Is it possible for an external device to write directly to the Arduboy RAM or EEPROM whilst it is switched on? At that point, we could even be considering the possibility of storing some slow large data on a raspberry pi like maps and only needs to be on the device

The built in I2C capabilities just give you the ability to connect multiple devices over just two wires (plus a ground wire) and easily address them. You still have to define the protocol for what you’re going to send and receive.

If you only want to talk back and forth between two Arduboys, using the UART on the Rx and Tx pins is probably easier. Also, as I posted previously, solving signal voltage mismatches and achieving long cable lengths would be quite easy using Rx/Tx.

If you want to talk between more that two Arduboys, using a small PC with USB connections, as I proposed in the original post, would probably be easier than coming up with some kind of multi-way I2C cable with the proper pull ups and signal protection.

No. You would have to have your sketch receive serial commands and data, then this sketch would have decode them and write to RAM or EEPROM itself.

I started a topic today about this here.

I don’t know if it would be that difficult. What you thinking of already exists - it’s called USB On The Go, usually USB OTG.

My phone (now nearly two years old) has this, and it means I can either plug it into a computer as a mass storage device OR I can plug a mass storage device into it. I can also plug a keyboard or a sound card into my phone.

The key seems to be that fifth pin on the Micro B connector. There are Micro B to Micro B cables (I have several) but they have one key difference – one end has the ID pin grounded, the other lets it float. Thus, the cable determines which device is client and which is host. They are usually called “Micro B to Micro B HOST” cables. The USB shell on both ends is identical, with the only difference being the ID pin as described above.

All this would be meaningless except that I have seen application notes indicating that the ATmega32 can actually do USB OTG. Perhaps the ID pin connection needs to be somewhat standard (and I have NO IDEA what standard is for this platform), and then it could be possible that two Arduboys could be connected with a cable for head to head games. I do know that the Arduboy is somewhat “USB flexible” since they show the idea of using it as a custom keyboard.

Perhaps someone with more background on the Arduino platform can chime in. I think this is a key item, and I have been looking for info before I finalize my backing. More particularly, I was actually looking for circuit diagrams, but (not surprising) did not find them. If the simple connection of one pin in the USB connector is all that is needed to make this work, then it would be worth letting Kevin and his team know about this possibility.

You are probably mistaken in you interpretation of said application notes. OTG requires one device configure itself as a USB host and the other to act as a USB device. Both devices must be able to handle both host and device modes. The ID pin just tells each device which mode it should use.

Unfortunately, the ATmega32U4 used by the Arduboy only supports device mode. It cannot go into host mode, so OTG can’t be supported.

It’s probable (though I don’t know for sure) that the ATmega32U4 could connect with an OTG capable device as long as that device is put in to host mode by inserting the correct end of the cable. However, with two Arduboys connected together neither would be able to assume the host role. I don’t think you even could connect two Arduboys together with a standard OTG cable because the ends are supposed to be different and only the “B” end could be plugged into the “B” type connector on the Arduboy.

There’s nothing exotic about the ID pin. It’s left unconnected on the “B” end of the cable and tied to ground on the “A” end.

Ah - too concise there, I guess. It can do USB OTG Client, but not USB OTG Host. Hmmm. Ok. Thank you for the clarification!

My final question then (and it’s a real newbie question) is regarding how the USB protocol is implemented on the ATmega32? Is it all buried in locked in device firmware, just exposed through I/O type calls? Or is the ATmega implementation exposing the lowest hardware level, and the sketch brings in most of the code to make a particular type of USB client device happen?

What I would want to check next is whether the data communication capabilities are completely hidden in the lower layers, or can you use the hardware to communicate ATmega to ATmega over a USB cable, but having to invent some on-the-wire protocol that can use the existing hardware?

It’s been a while since I’ve cracked open a 400 page datasheet, but I could use some engrossing reading on the subway!

I’m fairly sure that enough of the USB implementation is done in hardware so that it can only be a USB device, not a USB host. This means that no amount of custom wiring and electronics, and/or low level software, would allow two ATmega32U4’s to communicate with each other over their built in USB hardware. At least, nothing short of putting a device between the two which acts like a host and liaison for both devices, which of course is what the PC would be doing in my initial proposal which began this topic.

I mentioned this earlier. There is a USB pin that could be read for input by some sort of serial protocol but I can’t find anything that we could use for output that would just let us turn it on/off at will apart from any USB higher level function.

Also if we COULD hack USB in such a function the device would require a reset in order to reprogram it since we’d be pretty much breaking the USB auto-reboot.

I think I’d be prepared to tentatively disagree on that point. The hardware architecture is basically memory mapped buffers, control registers, and interrupts. Nothing of the negotiation that makes a host a host and a client a client looks to be at the ATmega32 layer. It will still need to connect to a USB port and electronics, because of voltages and low-level timing, but maybe not much more than that.

I further looked over some sample USB keyboard code for the Teensy (also an ATmega32u4 device) and the entire content of buffers, management of VID and PID, sending and receiving, and the buffer management via interrupts, is there in the C code (from here https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/rawhid.html ) which is part of the app, not part of the chip. That strongly suggests you can happily send and receive packets long before either side decides what it is. The only constraint is whether or not the D- and D+ pins are connected in a way that matches on the other end. And - a big one - will the USB interface operate without power on the USB VBUS line. I think it will. The notes in the datasheet show cross connecting VBUS to ATmega power supply pins to get a bus-powered device, while VBUS in the USB interface is just monitored through a control register to see if it is connected.

I’m keeping in mind that since we have two Arduboys trying to chat to each other, we can accept anything that works. USB Host would be too difficult to implement, but we don’t need USB Host. We can get by with bare-bones send a buffer, receive a buffer, possibly even slightly lower than the equivalent of the USB control packet level. We don’t need to implement either USB host or USB client. Some low level packet USB sends are ‘best effort’ which is exactly the type of thing needed to communicate between two small devices running a shared game. It leverages the fact that USB devices need to be able to chat just to explain who they are and set up a particular type of connection. Rather than climb the chain to managed USB devices, you just stop when you reach basic send/receive and use that.

At this level the whole USB OTG thing is just a distraction. The ATmega32 docs even indicate that the ability to read the bit for the ID pin exists, but it always returns 1 - there is no real pin. But getting two devices to agree on a peer to peer protocol when you don’t need to be compatible with anything else is far less difficult than building the USB protocol stack.

This is a design space that is not well explored, because the need to connect two Arduinos is likely less common than the need to connect an Arduino to a PC serial or USB port. And if you’re starting from scratch, with full hardware design control, you would use either the SPI or serial links to connect two Arduinos. There are easier ways to do this when you have all the design options available, so nobody is trying to leverage USB hardware in non-standard ways.

This is classic 8-bit console thinking, of course. There are no external standards - there’s only what works. The only standard that matters is the hardware, because everyone has the same thing. Anything the hardware will repeatedly and consistently do for you is fair game - whether it’s expected from the docs or not. This is the same type of thinking that rewrites video memory at the end of scan lines to get closer to bit-mapped graphics on small computers that were only supposed to have character graphics.

Uncertainty remains, but this is enough to give me some confidence. I think I’m off to kickstarter for a buddy pack! Even if peer to peer doesn’t work out, the kids and I can still have 8 bit wallet game systems!

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I kind of agree with you, but even the Arduino docs say that only more powerful Arduino boards can play USB Host (Due, etc).

Ref: http://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/USBHost

It could be that being a host requires too much code or memory (and those are in short supply). Or that we’re missing part of the hardware. We do have a USB controller chip inside the CPU that the software drives… it could also be something important in the controller is required for Host… I honestly don’t know enough to say for sure. If possible I bet it’s not easy.

I don’t think it has been mentioned yet but there are six pads on the back of the arduboy this is most likely a programming header it might be possible to solder a connector to the back if you are extremely careful.

Most likely some of these pins are RX/TX/Gnd/Power. This would probably be the easiest point to connect.
Also it might be possible to solder an IR receiver and an IR Led to the pins then you could have wireless multiplayer. However I would not be willing to risk breaking my DEV kit to test either of these options.

If you’e willing to solder a whole new world opens up to you. My only interest (speaking only for myself) was if we could use the manufactured and already exposed USB port for 2 player communication. From everything I’ve seen so far I think that answer is no.

I think running it through a central system such as a PC would be fine and could offload so much work onto the PC if it is not needed instantly.

Regardless of what pads are on the development kit version: